Interview: Hiroshi Kataoka (2006-03-31) by 1UP.com

This is an unaltered copy of an interview of Hiroshi Kataoka, for use as a primary source on Sega Retro. Please do not edit the contents below. Language: English Original source: The Last Arcade Crusaders Sega-AM2 Interview from 1UP.com

by Ali Hasan Almaci and Heidi Kemps, Foreword by James Mielke  3.31.2006

It's no secret that arcades, the very same gaming centers that many of us grew up in, immersed in the digital bleeps and bloops of shooters, platform action games and fighters, are on the verge of extinction. It's been a long time since the heyday of games like Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Mr. Do, and the latter-day surge of fighters like Stret Fighter II and Mortal Kombat. While various Gameworks and Chuck E. Cheeses carry the torch, arcades are generally the exception to the rule here in North America as opposed to the thriving smoke-filled hang-outs that they are in Japan. People of all shapes and sizes - salarymen, office ladies, students - all fill the aisles of seated arcade machines in the typical Japanese video game center. And if you're not playing pachinko (a Japanese gambling game), chances are you're sitting down at a Virtua Fighter 4 Final Tuned machine, squaring off against an unknown opponent sitting opposite you, the two Virtua Fighter machines back to back.
Virtua Fighter is, and arguably always will be, Japan's most popular fighting game by a wide margin. In almost any Japanese arcade you'll usually find dozens of Virtua Fighter 4 Evo or VF4: Final Tuned machines compared to a mere two or three Tekken 5 units. The Virtua Fighter machines are almost always occupied, while crickets chirp loudly in the Tekken corner. Developer Sega-AM2's dominance of arcades is unparalleled, having produced hits like After Burner, Virtua Cop, Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter and so many more over the years. With Sega-AM2 putting the final coat of paint on the arcade version of the Lindbergh-powered Virtua Fighter 5, we thought it would be a good time to sit down with Hiroshi Kataoka, President of Sega's arcade amusement departments (comprised of six specialized departments - sports, consumer, etc.) and talk with him about the past, present and future of not only arcade life, but Sega-AM2 as well. In this rare interview opportunity, Kataoka-san talks about past-gen, current-gen and next-gen topics, while offering insights on some of the most minute AM2-related details you could ever imagine. So won't you join us in this most revealing of conversations?

Interview with Hiroshi Kataoka

1UP: Lately we've seen a shift in Japanese arcades from traditional arcade games to massive, multiplayer networked games with large custom cabinets and setups, such as Key of Avalon and Quest of D. Why do you think these machines have gained such popularity? Do you think they will continue to do as well in the future?
Hiroshi Kataoka: Multiplayer games like those became popular due to the desire of players to play with several people at once. The trading card elements also proved to be popular - there's a big tie between them and the motivation of players to keep coming back to the game.

There are other factors, too. You've got IC cards now that are capable of storing player data, so players can store records of their play. There are now networks in place that allow you to play against opponents all across the country. And finally, there's more space available when compared to the past.

1UP: Do you think the emerging popularity of MMORPGs at the time had anything to do with it?

HK: The basic concepts of enjoyability behind the game are the same as an MMO game. But talking more deeply, the arcade games have things like cards to collect and people sitting around you participating in gameplay, as opposed to the usually solitary MMO experience.

1UP: With the next generation of home consoles on the horizon, can we expect to see new arcade hardware based on the new systems (X360, PS3, etc)?

HK: We do have some possibilities, but at the moment we can't say anything. There were rumors that the Lindbergh was based on the X360 going around a while back, but those were false.

1UP: What are some distinct differences in developing games for arcade hardware, as opposed to home consoles?

HK: The biggest difference is that games in arcades simply can't have players doing nothing for long stretches of time. You can't have excessive load time or anything like that. That's the reason why arcade hardware has much more memory than the home consoles.

1UP: Yes, arcade machines do have a lot of RAM. But won't it be a problem to convert the newest generation of arcade titles to the home consoles?

HK: It's not that difficult when compared to past generations, but the memory issue is always something we struggle with. But again, a big difference between arcade and console games is that the console game has to offer long-term enjoyment and value for its purchase price. That is another hurdle that has to be overcome when you do arcade-to-home ports.

1UP: Which is why VF4 on PS2 had so many additional modes in it.

HK: Yes, precisely.

1UP: So in the past, arcade hardware was leaps and bounds ahead of home consoles, while these days they're just about even. Some people in the field seem worried that there isn't enough to differentiate arcade games from their console counterparts. What sort of things do you believe make recent arcade titles unique from games you can play at home?

HK: Well, besides the elements I stated earlier, there's an additional face-to-face competition element in there as well. You can enjoy the game with a large group of friends in the same place. There's also things like the trading cards you can physically buy and collect.

1UP: The Nintendo Revolution has a unique controller unlike anything we've ever seen before. What do you think of it? Have you given any thought to making arcade games based around similar technology and then porting them to that platform?

HK: Arcade games always use the peripheral that best suits the game. The Revolution controller is a new option we now have available. If it suits a game concept we have, we just might use it. As for console ports, in recent times it has become more difficult to do home conversions of gun games due to the wide variety of TVs in use by consumers. While the arcade games use specialized, high-resolution screens, you don't have that sort of standardization in the consumer market. So, I'm personally hoping the Revolution's controller will allow us to do more ports of gun games.

1UP: Several well-known fighting game series, such as Soul Calibur and Dead or Alive, have become console exclusive. Why do you think this is happening? Do you think there will ever be a console-exclusive VF release?

HK: There are big differences between fighting games designed for the arcade and those designed for the home. Arcade games need to have finely tuned balance between the character strengths - you can't have one character stronger than the others. This is very difficult to accomplish, and presents a lot of restrictions and challenges for the developers. Console games, though, focus more on immediate enjoyability rather than balance. Soul Calibur and DoA fall into this category. They don't have the restrictions of an arcade game, so they can present an entertainment experience better suited for the home market. With VF, we're trying to create a competitive experience like that of a sport. There's just no way that could become the standard for the home market.

1UP: There's a lot of controversy among western VF fans about the lack of online play capabilities in the games. What is it specifically about VF that you think doesn't work well in an online context?

HK: The biggest problem is the time lag when executing techniques. VF runs at 60 frames per second, and every frame is important. We could make adjustments to eliminate lag, but if we did that, there would be no difference in the timing of the various moves, and the competitive aspect of the game would be ruined. We ran some tests in-house with simulated lag, but it wound up feeling like a completely different game!



1UP: Yes, I believe that point had been brought up in the past, as well.
HK: We've come to the conclusion that if we ever wanted to do an online fighting game, it would need to be called something besides Virtua Fighter. I'm sure the players would feel the same way.

1UP: Arcade games seem to appeal mostly to teenagers and adults, but recently Sega has had huge success with Mushiking, a game geared towards young children. Are kids a particular market segment that you want to appeal to with future efforts?

HK: The market opened by Mushiking is very important, as it's very large and has a lot of future growth potential. Sega will work to further serve that market, but I don't know if I personally will make a game for that market at this time.

1UP: While Japanese arcades are thriving, arcades in the West are in a state of severe decline. What do you think has caused this? What sort of differences are there between Japanese game centers and Western arcades? Do you think there is anything that can be done?

HK: Game centers in Japan are a place you go on an impulse - you'd stop in to play on the way home from school or work to kill some time. Young adults and salarymen go there thinking "instead of playing at home by myself, I'll play against others." In the western market, you have to get motivated and plan to go to an arcade. Most people in the west, it seems, would rather just stay home and play on PCs or consoles. The conclusion I came to, after examining these markets, is that western arcades should have an atmosphere where a family can have fun. Sega should work towards creating those outlets and producing more family-oriented games to serve them.

1UP: So when did you first start at Sega? Have you always wanted to work in video games?

HK: I started here at Sega in 1992. I'd held interest in games for a very long time.

1UP: What did you do before you came to Sega?

HK: I was a college student. [Laughs]

1UP: So this was your first job out of school, then. What made you want to work at Sega?

HK: I wanted to make something as good as After Burner.

1UP: What were the first games you worked on?

HK: I first worked with Suzuki-san on Virtua Racing. Nagoshi-san [Super Monkey Ball, Ryu Ga Gotoku, etc.] was on that team, as well.

1UP: One of the first big titles you acted as director for was Fighting Vipers. Can you tell us about how and when the concept for the game came about?

HK: Virtua Fighter had opened up a new market for 3D fighting games. At that time, there still weren't many out there, so Suzuki-san wanted to capitalize on this. I was ordered by Suzuki-san to make a 3D fighting game that would serve a different sort of player market than VF.

1UP: The setting and general style of Fighting Vipers felt a lot like late 1980s America. This was quite a dramatic change from Virtua Fighter. What made you decide to go with those thematic elements?

HK: I wanted to create a game that was different from VF, but using VF's core technology. VF is about martial arts professionals fighting against one another, so we didn't include any such characters in FV. Also, VF's a game with a very Asian feel to it, so we wanted to do the exact opposite of that...

1UP: Did you deliberately want to target a Western market with the game?

HK: Not exactly, but we figured that if they enjoyed the game a lot as well, it was all for the better.

1UP: The character designs, too, were very unorthodox. How were they created?

HK: The first concept was that all the characters would wear armor. We did this because we really wanted to portray very intense fighting, but we didn't want it to be bloody and gory like Mortal Kombat. It would feel exciting for the player when they saw the armor break and scatter all over the playfield, rather than depicting bloodshed. After that, we attached things like skateboards and guitars - things that younger people were interested in. We thought about things like what sort of armor a skateboarder or rock star would wear, and came up with the designs from there.

1UP: Can I ask where Honey's design came from? She's a very memorable character.

HK: Honey was created by an individual character designer, she wasn't a team effort or anything.

1UP: She continues to have a very devout fan following. Have you ever considered giving her her own game?

HK: Uh... sorry. [Laughs]

1UP: Rather than the realistic physics of the VF games, the FV series has a greatly exaggerated physics engine. How did you go about developing this?

HK: We wanted to target the game to a more casual type of player than VF's main audience, but we still wanted to create flashy combat that would be easily enjoyed.

1UP: Is it true that the original FV's physics engine is based on a modified version of VF2?

HK: Yes, there was a lot of material shared between the two games.

1UP: In FV2 the character designs and settings had more of a futuristic, sci-fi feel. What made you decide to go that route with the game?

HK: There was an illustrator named "Imaitoons" (recently involved with the anime "Dead Leaves") who really liked Fighting Vipers. His designs have a unique character to them, and a more futuristic feel.

1UP: So he approached you about doing the character designs?

HK: No, it was more of a mutual thing. He had done some illustrations for some Saturn FV guidebooks that had been published, so we had a relationship with him since then. There was talk from both ends.

1UP: You were very heavily involved with Virtua Fighter 4, and were the director of VF4 Evolution. The game has proved to be groundbreaking, paving the way for all kinds of arcade games with network features. How did the idea for VF.net come about?

HK: Virtua Fighter was a series that had always been on the cutting-edge of technology. The main draw to the first 3 games was the graphic technology. But when 4 came around, there wasn't as big a difference compared to other things on the market. Nobody would be as blown away with the graphics of the Naomi 2 as they were when the Model 2 and 3 were unveiled. We needed something new, and after much discussion, we eventually came up with the network concept.

1UP: A lot of arcades at the time didn't have any network infrastructure. Were you worried that arcades might not adopt the VF.net system?

HK: Not at all. This was coming at the beginning of a big broadband boom in Japan. With it came lower prices for broadband connections. VF is a marquee title, so we knew it would get arcades to adopt the broadband infrastructure.

1UP: The designs and fighting styles of the new characters in VF4 and Evolution were quite a change from previous games. Can you tell us a little bit about how each of the characters introduced in VF4 and Evolution were developed?

HK: I don't really think there was that big a difference compared to the previous character designs, actually. The main concept behind the VF series is "fighting arts." We think of a way to insert martial arts techniques into the game, and design a character around them. With VF4 Evo, we noticed we were lacking two popular styles, Judo and Muay Thai kickboxing. We really wanted to implement those into the game, so we designed Goh and Brad around them.

1UP: Vanessa in particular developed rather strangely - she wasn't in the test version of VF4, appeared in the final game, but was heavily revamped in Evo. What exactly went on with her over the game's development? Did she turn into a different sort of character than what she was initially concieved as?

HK: The concept behind Vanessa's design was "military." Fighting arts in the army consist of a wide mix of elements. Compared to the other characters, we had a lot more freedom to see what sort of techniques would and wouldn't work with her. That's why she went through so many different skills over the game's development.

1UP: Brad wound up with a bunch of her old techniques in VF4 Evo.

Yes, one element she had originally was Muay Thai. We eventually decided we wanted a separate kickboxer character, so we derived the techniques from her and gave her a new set.

1UP: It seems like a lot of ideas that first appeared in Fighting Vipers 2 (tech rolling, etc.) made their way into VF4. Did FV2 act as sort of a "testing ground"?

HK: There was a lot of staff carryover between the two games, so there was definitely some overlap. I don't think of FV2 as a "testing ground," though.

...continued, (page 2 of 2)
1UP: The four most popular characters in VF have consistently been Akira, Jacky, Lau, and Kage. I've heard people sometimes complain about the lack of character variety at official tournaments, with those four characters often making up the majority of entries. Do you keep this in mind when developing the VF games? Do you ever make additions or changes to the games as a way to try and encourage people to try different characters and create more variety in competition?
HK: I don't think that can really be helped. As I mentioned before, it's important that none of the characters are particularly strong. The big difference, I think, is the character's appearance, personality, and techniques. We want to make all the characters appealing in their own way. I think that there's just something about those characters in particular that makes them appealing to a lot of players. We're working with the same mindset for VF5. We want all the characters to be as attractive as possible, but the character a player chooses to use is completely up to their personal preferences.

As a side note, we surveyed character usage on VF.net recently and found that Jacky was the most frequently used. Maybe we should change the way he looks, or something... that might help. Would you like that?

1UP: I wouldn't mind more Vanessa players, personally.

HK: Have you seen her in VF5? We changed her look a bit.

1UP: Actually, there seems to be a bit of controversy over that. I've read a lot of unhappy posts on messageboards because it appears her skintone's lighter than before.

HK: Well, the technology in rendering the skin is different from the previous game... But I personally like the way she looks now.

1UP: Many Saturn fans fondly remember Fighters Megamix. Have you ever thought of doing something like that again, i.e. with VF4 and FV2 characters in the same title?

HK: I've always thought about that; I just don't have the time for it. Compared to that time, the market's shrunk a bit, so I don't think the game would do as well.

1UP: What about just a console-exclusive game?

HK: Recently the arcade and consumer branches at Sega were made completely separate. In the past my department was ready to work on both arcade and consumer games, but now we are focused almost exclusively on arcade titles.

1UP: It's no secret that you and many other Sega AM staff members (Katagiri, Osaki, etc.) are big fans of Western games, particularly first person shooters. What about these games appeals to you so much?

HK: The game's presentation makes you really feel as though you are immersed the game's world. I quite like that.

1UP: They've never really taken off in Japan, though.

HK: Yes, and I sometimes wonder why. I like them a lot.

1UP: Well, there is going to be an arcade release of Half-Life 2 in Japan. I know you did an arcade FPS called Outtrigger in the past. Have you thought of making another one?

HK: I'd love to, personally.



1UP: Have Western games influenced the development of titles you've worked on?
HK: Of course. Actually, Outtrigger was made to try and introduce the FPS to the Japanese market.

1UP: Why do you think Western games aren't as popular in Japan as Japanese games are in the West?

HK: I think there's a difference between how Japanese and Western players want the game to be. The graphic style has a lot to do with it. Japanese players prefer a more confined space rather than an open environment. They also don't like such gritty, realistic graphics, though that is starting to change. Thematic elements and cultural differences probably play a role, as well. Recently, though, the popularity of Western games in Japan has been on the rise.

1UP: There's been a lot of controversy in Japan and the West over the Grand Theft Auto series. Have you played these games? What do you think of them?

HK: Yes, I have played it. I really don't know what to think of it. It's interesting, but there are elements in the game that I find unsettling. I don't like being able to kill innocent people without any consequences.

1UP: Which games that you've worked on are you the most proud of?

HK: I liked Sonic the Fighters the most. I'm also proud of VF4, since it introduced the network system.

1UP: What games have you played recently that you have really enjoyed? What games have been the biggest influences on your own work?

HK: I really enjoyed Kaze no Takuto (The Wind Waker), but that isn't really recent, is it? Well, most recently I've been playing Oideyo Doubutsu no Mori (Animal Crossing WW).

1UP: Hey, I've got that! I named my town Armstone. You know, after the city in FV. [Laughs]

HK: Oh, maybe we can exchange friend codes! But I doubt the English and Japanese versions are compatible...

1UP: What about Mario Kart?

HK: That's what Katagiri's playing. [Laughs] But the games that influenced my work the most... that would have to be Outrun and After Burner.

1UP: What do you think of the upcoming generation of console systems? How about the portable consoles (DS and PSP)?

HK: One impression I have is that making software for the PS3 and X360 will be much more difficult.

1UP: Is that why the Lindbergh is based on the Pentium 4 and other existing technology? It seems like it'd be easier to work with.

HK: It's not so much that sort of thing, but more that there are many types of TVs in use in homes right now, like I touched on before. Getting the software to work well with those many different types of monitors is quite tough. Some people have 40-inch normal TVs, and some have newer 50-inch, widescreen HDTVs. You have to take that sort of thing into account.

HK: As for the portables, I'm a big fan of them, personally. The networking aspect of things like the DS is an interesting new technology in that medium, though it's been around in home systems for a while.

1UP: Many, many rumors have floated about regarding the mysterious Saturn version of Virtua Fighter 3. It was even said to use a hardware upgrade cartridge. Can you give us any information about how Saturn VF3 was being developed, and how far along it was?

HK: I have never heard anything about the hardware upgrade you mentioned, so... I can't say anything. At that time Suzuki-san was working more on getting Shenmue off the ground.

1UP: So was it ever in the pipeline, or did everyone just assume it'd be made for DC?

HK: VF3 had the variable stage elements - floor height and things like that. The Saturn just wasn't capable of rendering those. So, we decided to hold it off until the DC.

1UP: Sonic the Fighters recieved a long-delayed home release on the Sonic Gems Collection. A Saturn version was once planned but never materialized. What happened to it?

HK: Yeah, I wonder what happened? I'd like to know, too! [Laughs]

1UP: People expected it since some of the characters were in Fighters Megamix.

HK: Well, uh, back in those days, the higher-ups would often announce titles without us even knowing. Saturn VF3 and Sonic the Fighters were like that. Those were mistakes.

1UP: Yuji Naka told us that he's very fond of the game. How did you two work together on the game's development?

HK: Suzuki-san delivered the Sonic the Fighters idea to me. At first I was worried because the concept had the Sonic characters beating each other up. I was afraid Naka-san wouldn't like that... but he was actually very receptive to the concept. At that point nobody had yet attempted to present Sonic in 3D, so Sonic the Fighters was his official 3D debut. He was very happy to see that. We were worried about rendering Sonic in 3D at first, so Naka-san even gave me a Sonic figure to work off of.



1UP: Is it true that there was a hidden character modeled on Honey in the game? Apparently some code hackers dug up a Sonic-ized character model of her...
HK: Oh? Well, the game is based on the Fighting Vipers code - in initial tests the Sonic characters were all battling in Vipers stages! So maybe there is data carryover.

1UP: She looks like a Sonic character, though. She's a little animal.

HK: In that case, I think Honey's character designer probably slipped her in there. He's actually the one responsible for the whole concept... he was screwing around one day with some Sonic character models he'd made, putting them in Vipers stages. Suzuki-san saw that and more or less lifted the concept from him. [Laughs]

1UP: It's been mentioned that VF5 will offer much more to players in the way of character customization. Other games have built upon the precedent VF4 established - in fact, Soul Calibur III has a full-fledged character creation mode. Do you think something like this would work in the context of Virtua Fighter? Why or why not?

HK: Soul Calibur isn't really customization like in VF. It's different in that you build a character from scratch. The concept in VF is to take an existing character, like Jacky, and give him an item to make his appearance a little bit different and distinct. I think part of the fun is collecting and shopping for the items, as well. So I'm not really concerned about competing with them on that front.

1UP: Can you tell us a little bit about VF5's wrestler character, El Blaze? Why did you choose a luchador (a fighter specializing in lucha libre, the Mexican fighting art) as a new fighter? How is he different from Wolf?

HK: El Blaze more or less reflects the current tastes of the VF5 staff. As you know, Wolf is a very large, heavy wrestler character. His skills are slower and more damaging. We wanted a smaller, more technical wrestler - the opposite of Wolf. That's how El Blaze's base concept came about.

1UP: What about Eileen? She kind of reminds us of Emi from FV2.

HK: I have to disagree there. [Laughs] It's in progress, so she's still undergoing changes.

1UP: How is Sega different these days from the time when you started working here? Are you happy with how things have progressed? Do you miss the past, or are you more focused on the future?

HK: Sega has changed a lot over the years. From time to time, it undergoes quick, dramatic change. I don't really have any time to worry much about what went on in the past. Sega is Sega, and will always be Sega. I'm constantly looking towards the future.

1UP: Finally...any chance we'll see Fighting Vipers get a belated third installment, ala Virtua Cop 3?

HK: There aren't any plans at this time, but who knows, maybe in the future. After all, I never expected to be producing a new After Burner after all this time...that was my dream for so long!